Conversation with Csalogány about numinousness and the artistic process

The work of Csalogány (Pászkány Tímea Klaudia), in my opinion, is one of the most interesting in the Hungarian music scene as of today, which I’ve been lucky enough to witness. The work pleasantly combines a captivating stage presence, wonderfully witchy and enchanting vocals, and instrumentals that have the power to evoke strong emotions. The result is a spiritual journey that both the artist and the audience can take part in.

The artist’s latest record, Szellemzaj, Hústenger is a concept album showcasing human emotions, from Melancholy (Szellemzaj, Hústenger) to Euphoria (Körbe Jár), including several specific experiences and individual thought processes, such as Nostalgia (Csillagtenger), a Derealisation (Vákuum Csendben) and Numinous (Nyílik A Menny).

The numinous itself can be defined as a condition, more so than a feeling. A state that most resembles a sacred phenomenon from the viewer’s perspective, evoking an all-encompassing awe and fear simultaneously. This expression is most often used in a religious context; however, Csalogány offers a new interpretation through sound.

Can you tell us about the new album?

I took inspiration from psychology, religion and my own experiences - these are the factors combined in my work. I did a lot of research in this process, for example, while making Shame (Jöjj És Láss), I read a lot about „lélekgyilkosság”, which is a psychoanalytic term coined by Freud. This expression is rarely included in textbooks; however, in definition, it is closest to complex trauma and emotional abuse.

During the process, I got closer to both psychology and religion, especially in the case of  Numinous, since that is the odd one out on the album. In my opinion, the numinous as an emotion is rather hard to grasp. This song took the most time to prepare, because I was searching for something that I still haven’t completely identified. Every path I took opened new doors in front of me.

The research must have influenced this, but why did you end up choosing the numinous to expand upon?

A few years ago, I was very sad while I walked through the main square at Óbuda. I was listening to New History Warfare, Vol 2: Judges from Colin Stetson. For a second, I felt as if my deep sadness had been suddenly diluted with light. It was indescribable, as if everything had become much lighter, yet the weight of it all was enormous; the space around me felt changed. Afterwards, when my project Csalogány began, I continuously tried to grasp that feeling while not knowing what I was searching for; however, this specific memory always remained.

How does your artistic process develop?

When writing a song, I always think about experiences and events where I felt inspired to some degree. Some memories have no particular meaning, but carry such emotional dynamics that they remain with me, and I often replay them in my head. I enjoy looking back on certain moments, usually searching for why it comes to mind right now. If I find the parallels, I feel that perhaps I have gotten a bit closer to myself.

Currently, a thing I keep coming back to is the summer of 2019, since that is when I moved to Hungary. To me, that summer was about preparing for change, and I experienced the summer of 2025 in the same way. I still feel the ghost of that kid who I was back then. It feels like building yourself a path that leads to a door; however, you don’t know what is behind that. I feel the same way now. I don’t know what is behind the door, but I know I have to keep going because I can’t stay in the dark.

The song Numinous was inspired by a dream I had that left a really deep mark on me. It was beautiful and frightening at the same time. This prompted me to begin my research.

Each song on the album processes an emotion, primarily from a psychological standpoint. In this case, how did the process happen? How did the song evolve into the version we hear now?

It was a rather difficult journey. I thought it would be a liberating process, yet I still haven’t found the answer. The closer I got, the farther I felt from it, yet the whole time my goal was to experience the numinous again.

When I was researching, I read everything I could, from psychological textbooks to theological works, but it was Jung’s theory that first introduced me to the term “numinous.” I later found out that Rudolf Otto coined the word and was the first to use it in the “modern” sense.

During the process of reading literary works and examining my own experiences, I tried to pinpoint the feeling, but sometimes I strayed very far; other times, I was so close that it slipped out of my view. Meanwhile, the lyrics started taking shape after lots and lots of trial and error.

I tried searching for similar feelings as well, because I remained curious. For example, there is unio mystica, which I think lies quite close to the original term I was working with. Unio mystica is the process in which the soul becomes one with God, when the higher power can be felt in everything. I encountered a lot of feelings in this process, such as ego death, and I also read about the trans state that shamans enter and the experiences they have, which lead to very intense emotions and perceptions.

In my opinion, it depends very much on the person how their mind reacts to this heavy, massive burden that weighs on them at the moment of a perception such as this. I could imagine that someone experiencing numinousness would end up having religious psychosis. The important question is, where can we draw a line between a psychotic state and a divine revelation? How can we separate the two from each other?

The song itself uses different structures. What inspired you to do this, and what does each part reflect in your relationship to the numinous?

I think about this a little bit like I’m telling a story or recounting an event. “Nyílik A Menny” starts with the emergence of the feeling. The beginning of the song showcases when you feel something but you’re not fully conscious of it, as if only the air had changed. After this, the spoken word part is where you realise it and try to describe your experience. Towards the end, you begin to surrender to the feeling and experience it. The part starting with the line „Szitál a fény” is the one where you fully immerse yourself, you don’t think, you just feel and wait, you become the observer. The last segment is when you get scared because you have no idea when you’ll be able to leave this state. How do I know that I’ll get out of it and won’t remain stuck? The numinous is a heavy feeling, a deep, complex perception which is scary precisely because it is uncommon. It encompasses everything, and since you didn’t enter it willingly, you can’t exit willingly either. The end of the song shows the fear of this part, when the sound begins to crack and distort. In some way, this also includes the fact that the mind can’t fully comprehend an experience like this. You are in such awe that the mind almost collapses; this is another way to interpret the end.

I currently believe that numinous is an existing feeling; however, psychology often interprets it as a symptom. Since during this album I process feelings from a psychological standpoint, the ending of the song is meant to show this perspective as well, reinforcing that this could be considered a psychotic state.

From what you told me, I gather that different people express and experience numinousness in different ways. I suppose this is why science and religion view it in two very distinct ways. Do you think that science will be able to name this feeling in the future, or will it always be associated with an enlightened religious state?

I think absolutely, these types of perceptions will have scientific names. For example, what we call anxiety or grief today was explained by the presence of an incubus in Hungarian folklore. In my opinion, the numinous will be similar to this, maybe other rare feelings as well. When we know more about humans, the brain, and God, sooner or later, we will reach a point where we can name these feelings precisely. Perhaps one day we’ll be able to pinpoint their origins, why, and how they occur.

If this point comes, do you think it could compromise the essence of this feeling? This reminds me of the fact that today, with our 21st-century brains, we say that the gods of ancient cultures are a result of wanting to explain natural disasters and human nature itself. In your opinion, if the aforementioned feelings become easily describable, won’t they lose the sacred power they hold?

It may happen, yes. This made me think about the fact that people are really curious but are also afraid of what they don’t know, and the numinous is a mixture of these two. I don’t want to give up my research just because this song is finished. For me, the feeling won’t lose its importance and value, but there will surely be some people for whom it will. As people evolve, they always find something to believe in. We don’t believe in the same things we did a few thousand years ago, but we find other things that fill the same void in our souls. Art, for example, is one of those things.

A lot of artworks feature the numinous, but not necessarily consciously. There are paintings, poems, and songs that feature it, not deliberately but rather woven into their meaning deep down, sometimes despite the creator’s intention. There is a poem by Jahoda Sándor, which features this feeling (Tébolyában ápolt remény). It’s in that Colin Stetson album I was listening to, through and through, or even in Shine On You Crazy Diamond. I think numinousness is there even when you lie under the starry sky, when you look at the sea, or when you float in water.

So, to sum it up, you realised that the search for the numinous is something that is inherent to human nature?

Yes, it is a human thing to try and understand. I think if our souls were in control and not our minds, we wouldn’t try to describe it; we’d just accept it. Our soul knows what it is and protects our mind from it.  The mind would not be able to comprehend it, which is why it’s so frightening, I think.

What was your goal with this song - to convey how you feel the numinous in an almost meditative process or to evoke it in others?

Actually, my goal with this song was to create a rendition of what I feel at times like this, so that I can remember it and feel it, because it’s something that can’t entirely be grasped.

When I started writing, it did occur to me whether it would be possible at all to evoke this “artificially”. Of course, not fully, because I can’t depict it in the exact same way, but I wanted it to be as close as possible. My primary goal is to make people feel or to evoke some kind of emotion in them. And if I can inspire even a tiny bit of that feeling in someone, I feel that my song has achieved its goal.